How to Fight For Your Rights at Work
Episode 15: How to Fight For Your Rights at Work with Daphne Delvaux of @themamattorney
Join Rachael and Daphne Delvaux as they talk about women’s rights in the workplace. Daphne is an award-winning trial attorney and has even founded her own law firm devoted to women's rights at work. This episode is so powerful and informative for anyone who has a job and is planning on being pregnant, has been pregnant in the past, is back to work and pumping, or is a working mom. Feeling empowered by knowing all your rights and options can take a lot of the unknown out and help you to plan for the future!
In this episode we discuss:
The most important things to line up before and after you announce your pregnancy
Advice on when to announce pregnancy at work
When you should ask about maternity leave and partner’s leave
Overview of legal protections in place for working moms- such as maternity leave, breastfeeding and pumping accommodations, discrimination prevention, family and medical leave and flexible work arrangements.
Navigating pregnancy-related discrimination, including unfair treatment and wrongful termination, and how to navigate this
Negotiating family-friendly policies for a better work-life balance
Guidance on managing the transition back to work after maternity leave ends
Daphne Delvaux, Esq. is an award-winning trial attorney and Founder of Delvaux Law, a law firm devoted to women's rights at work. She has been recognized by major news outlets (both nationally and internationally) as a leader of the women’s rights movement, and has received the award of Outstanding Trial Lawyer for winning an equal pay trial.
Delvaux is also the creator of the Mamattorney, a platform on a mission to educate women on their rights at work and teach them how to advocate for their needs so they can receive more financial freedom and time freedom without sacrificing their career goals or ambitions. Daphne is routinely seen as the expert on pregnancy and postpartum discrimination as well as maternity leave regulations. Daphne is on a mission to help ambitious moms achieve professional homecoming.
The Mamattorney Academy membership here
20% off all Coterie diapering products (diapers, wipes, pants) for first time customer orders of $40 or more. Use for subscription or one-time purchase. Code: NoOneToldUs
Rachael is a mom of 3, founder ofHey, Sleepy Baby, and the host of this podcast.
Listen to the full episode:
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Rachael: Welcome to No One Told Us, the podcast that tells the truth about parenting and talks about all the stuff you wish you knew before having kids. I'm your host, Rachael Shepard-Ohta, and today I am so excited to have Daphne Delvaux, who is an award-winning trial attorney and founder of Delvaux Law, a law firm devoted to women's rights at work. She's been recognized by major news outlets, both nationally and internationally, as a leader of the women's rights movement, and you have received the award of Outstanding Trial Lawyer for winning an Equal Pay Trial. That's so amazing. You're also the creator of Mama Attorney, a platform on a mission to educate women on their rights at work and to teach them how to advocate for their needs so that they can receive more financial freedom and time freedom without sacrificing career goals or ambitions. Daphne, you're also routinely seen as the expert on pregnancy and postpartum discrimination, as well as maternity leave regulations. I am so excited to talk to you today. I think this is going to be such an important episode, and it's going to be just so filled with information that moms really need to know that you don't even know where to start when you're thinking about getting pregnant or when you are pregnant or have a young baby. It's just this whole system is so overwhelming for moms, so I'm really excited to hear you kind of break down all the most important stuff that we need to know about to make sure we're getting the most out of our employer, right? But before we dive into all of that, first of all, welcome to the podcast.
Daphne: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Rachael: Thank you so much for joining us and taking time out of, I'm sure your schedule is absolutely crazy because you do so many things, and you have so many different hats. But we really appreciate you being here with us today, and I'd love to start with just hearing a little bit more about you and what kind of drove you to choose this path. I know in law there are so many different avenues you can take, and so what made you passionate about doing the work that you do, and what's been kind of like your journey as a mom in this type of workspace?
Daphne: Yeah. Thank you so much for that question, and just for having this conversation, I think what we are doing, what we are doing here, what we are doing here is trying to educate moms to make sure that we prevent problems. And it's really important. Often when you're pregnant, that's the first time that you really confronted with your rights and with the law at the workplace. And it's also the most vulnerable time. You don't really know who to trust and where to go. And at the same time, you have to figure out all these systems, the health care system, benefit systems, child care systems, and then often your employer leave policies, and all of the things are very confusing and overwhelming, and not really created to help you or support you or guide you. So what we're trying to do today is really kind of create a roadmap and some information to empower moms to know where to go and what to do. Because it's true, like you don't really know where to start when you're pregnant. And when it comes to the law, the law in and of itself is extremely complicated and confusing. But then maternity law is extremely complex. And within my field of employment law, there's not that many lawyers that do what I do, which I wish there were more. First of all, there's not a lot of moms, like there's three of us. And, and then there's just this niche of maternity law that is quite rare, because it's very complicated and confusing. And that's kind of how I got into this work, because even though I was an employment attorney, working for a very old institution of an employment law firm, for many years, my boss, who was owner of the firm, did not actually know my rights. When it comes to my maternity leave, as a woman, as a pregnant lawyer, as a pregnant employment lawyer. And it's something that I had to figure out on my own. And it really was a confronting experience because I realized, oh my God, if I have to figure this out, and actually go to the regulations to read about my rights, I cannot even imagine what women are going through. And what I was learning about the law is that it is quite different than what what we're told. You know, our employers are usually not telling us the whole story when it comes to our rights because it's not really in their best interest. They're not really helped by us being empowered and educated because it means we will demand more and ask for more. And that doesn't really help in the context of capitalism. It doesn't help them make money. So instead, what they often do in the employment space is they either give you no information or they give you incomplete information or wrong information. For example, I've seen a lot of handbooks and policies that are just blatantly wrong. And then there's just a lot of misconceptions about the law when it comes to maternity leave that I really want to clear up a little bit today. There's a lot of things people say that are not true or half truths and it's really harming women. But when it comes to my own journey to this kind of work, I just had, like probably everyone listening, a lot of experiences as a woman in the workplace that were not easy when it comes to equal pay, sexual harassment, discrimination. And I think, you know, when you're young, you just tend to brush those things kind of under the rug as I think a lot of us do, or we just assume this is the norm and we just kind of go along with our day. We don't really want to speak up. We don't even really know how to speak up. Then when I went to law school and became a lawyer, that's truly when I saw the power of the law when it comes to workplace exploitation, abuse, or discrimination. So I wanted to use the skills I had to prevent other women from going through experiences that made them feel devalued, pushed aside, unsupported, or unresourced, because truly, if we do not have the support of our employers, it is quite hard to actually succeed as a mom. So I really started to see the intersection of motherhood and ambition and career as a place where there's a lot of work to do. do, there's a lot of things to clear up, and also there's a lot of compassion and grace that needs to be brought in, because it is just really hard. And I think that's an important place of, you know, where do we start? It's like, you know, probably by validating that it is hard, it was hard for me, it's hard for all of the moms I know. So if you feel like you're struggling, then you're doing it right. But it's also, you know, I wish that it would be easier. But the least I can do with the knowledge I have is help women navigate very complex systems.
Rachael: I love that your main goal is to just like empower us to speak up and to not just ask for what we want, but kind of demand it. And so what do you think is, as far as, you know, prepping for babies, so say mom's pregnant, maybe it's her first, maybe it's her second, but she's pregnant, what are the things that you think are the most important to get kind of in line before a baby is even born?
Daphne: Yeah, so I really advise women to start thinking about their rights when they start thinking about having a baby, or when they find out that they have a baby. A lot of the issues that my clients got into are because they waited too long. First of all, they waited too long to announce at work, which I do not recommend, or they waited too long to figure out what their leave plan is. And then in the process, there was a lot of resentment and frustration by coworkers, by the employer, or they waited too long to figure out how they're going to get back and pump. And unfortunately, it is up to the employee, not the employer, to assert her rights. Meaning that if an employer is watching you struggle, that employer has no obligation to help you. The employer is only obligated to help you if you ask for help. So if you assert your rights, yeah, if you assert your rights and you ask for certain rights like under the pump act, like pregnancy accommodations, if you do not use language like that, that is a little bit legally charged, which is uncomfortable in the workplace. But if you do not use very specific language and talk about specific laws, your employer actually has no obligation towards you, which means that if you're struggling because of pregnancy, but you're not asking for help, you can be fired, which is why I do not recommend waiting to announce your pregnancy at work. My advice is generally to announce your pregnancy at work the day after you find out. And that's because once you're pregnant, and they know you're pregnant, you are in a protected class. And if something shady happens at work, they're going to be a little bit more careful. But if you do not, if you didn't tell them you're pregnant and they see you struggle which they might know you're pregnant, but they're not going to tell you. And they can then actually legally fire you. So the first thing you need to do in the context of your rights is actually assert yourself as a pregnant woman, which puts yourself in a status of a protected class. Then that also entitles you to ask for accommodations at work, like more breaks, like telework, like flexibility, like more time off, time off for prenatal care, time off for stress, anxiety, prenatal depression, more equipment. You can ask to be moved to like the lower floor and you can ask for changes to your job. And your employer has a legal obligation to help you with that. But if your employer doesn't know you're pregnant and you're falling behind because of morning sickness or you're late because you're exhausted, then you're putting yourself in an extremely risky position. A lot of women don't want to announce they're pregnant because they're scared and concerned about their job, but it's actually riskier not to announce it. So the first thing you want to do when you find out you're pregnant is to actually tell your employer you're pregnant. The second thing you want to do is the moment you find out you're pregnant, you start thinking about your maternity leave plan as well as your partners. Because if you wait too long, you know, anything can happen during pregnancy, you will be in a position where you're experiencing something very hard and you also have to figure out your workplace rights. When you are prepared and you tell your employer like I'm pregnant and this is my leave plan, then kind of despite what happens at work, you will be covered and everyone will know what to do. Specifically, that means that you need some sort of document that lists all of your project's responsibilities and duties, and that you need to make your team and managers aware of what you're doing in terms of your job. And you don't want to wait until month eight to do that. You want to actually start doing that pretty soon because you have to help your employer help you, which means you have to educate your employer on what your job actually entails. No one knows better than you. A lot of the issues I see is when women take kind of a passive stance when it comes to their maternity leave and then they leave and then everyone freaks out because they don't know where the passwords are or they don't know when a project is due or things just kind of start falling apart. And then that woman is blamed for the impact on the business, which is kind of unfair, but also it's preventable, preventable by both the employee and the employer. And then the third thing you have to do in addition to thinking about your projects is also thinking about your maternity leave plan specifically and sit down with your partner and look at his or her parental leave rights and benefits.And then you want to actually have your plan figured out for when the baby comes and you want to do that soon instead of in the eighth month or the ninth month of pregnancy.
Rachael: Yeah, I think that's really smart to be proactive and prepared. So it's so interesting that you say to tell your employer right away because I think most people don't do that at all. I think a lot of people wait to tell even their family until it's like, you know, 12 weeks or whatever that they have that news to share. But that's so interesting. Do you recommend people actually put it in writing like in an email or how would you recommend they tell?
Daphne: Everything related to pregnancy and leave has to be in writing. What I've seen my cases, for example, is that a pregnant woman gets fired and then but she has really no evidence that the employer knew that she was pregnant and she's like, well, I told them and then I say, they're going to deny that. Like unless you have an email, you actually have the burden of proving your case. And unless you have an email that you can show that they knew you were pregnant, they're going to deny that they knew that. So you have to put everything that's related to pregnancy and maternity in email. And yeah, I know that it's kind of the custom to wait until 12 weeks and you can wait to tell your family and friends. But it really doesn't help you in the workplace to wait. It really cuts against you. And I know that we want to make sure the pregnancy is safe. But I think what you have to keep in mind is if something happens to the pregnancy and no one knows at work, you have to go to work the next day. Alternatively, you have to tell them mid-pregnancy loss that you are experiencing pregnancy loss. And that is complicated because no one is going to be ready for that. Whatever you have to do work wise will still need to get done. So it just leaves everyone in the state of chaos and also will create a lot of pressure on the woman, on the mom, to kind of get back to work instead of asking for a medical leave, which she's entitled to. So if your employer at the very least knows you're pregnant, they can kind of prepare for any, any outcome of that pregnancy, including loss.
Rachael: Yeah, I was going to ask if I was going to ask if there is an early loss or even a loss further along. Are there any protections or anything you can request?
Daphne: So there are protections and that's one of the myths we have to dispel. We have kind of the saying that we don't have leave rights after miscarriage and that's untrue. What we don't have is a right to bereavement leave. In general, so when we think about we have no time after birth, often that is interpreted in the context of bereavement leave of like we don't have mourning rights and then there's a lot of outrage about that. You know a few years ago we were looking at New Zealand and they just passed a three-day bereavement leave after loss and we were all thinking of New Zealand as this model. But truly, in the US, we already had a medical leave that could be used for loss that is 12 weeks. It is unpaid, it is paid in some states, not all states, but it is there in addition under the current Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which applies to a lot more employees, millions more employees because the FMLA is very limited. You can also take time off, so even paid you can take time off for pregnancy loss, loss of pregnancy and those are just things we don't know but it's because we're using the wrong language. We're talking about pregnancy loss in the context of bereavement but it is actually under US law considered a medical event. So we have to talk about this leave in the context of disability and medical. So you can take time off and I see a lot of women go back to work and not ask for anything because they assume they have no time off and that's one of the things where we have to make sure we kind of clear up language and the next thing we have to do to clear up language is maternity leave and that's a very big one. Maternity leave is not actually a right, it doesn't exist in the law, it is something that we say. So when we talk about “we have no maternity leave rights,” that's technically true because maternity leave is not a legal concept, it's not something that exists. So if you ask your employer like what do I have, what is a maternity leave policy or rights, they are technically correct in saying that doesn't exist. Because when it comes to the maternity leave period, the only laws in existence are medical leave or bonding leave. A lot of women have either or, or sometimes both. So we're using the wrong language when we ask for our rights. And my advice to women is always do not ask for maternity leave, which is crazy because I'm like the maternity expert, right? But that's because maternity leave is not a protected ask. It just doesn't exist. You ask for medical leave for childbirth and bonding leave for having a newborn. You ask for specific statutes like FMLA or in some states, there are other statutes that give you time off work. But we don't ask for maternity leave at work because it actually doesn't exist. So that's where there's another misconception of like, there's no maternity leave in the US. And therefore, because we hear that a lot, a lot of women aren't asking for their rights. The third misconception is that maternity leave is unpaid, which is true on the federal level. But there are some states, I think it's 13 right now, that have benefits. In addition, your employer can also have an insurance plan where there are some sort of short-term disability benefits because but because a lot of women assume they have no paid leave rights, they’re not asking for them or they're not investigating further. So even though we do need paid maternity leave on the federal level, there are actually some systems and programs in place that are severely underused because no one's really educating the women on those diagrams.
Rachael: Wow, that is such a shame. So do you find that most women that come to you with maternity leave issues, it's an issue of like a miscommunication or it is something that like could have been prevented if there had been clear communication?
Daphne: So this is what I see most often. And I see this all the time. And it hurts me like it hurts me as a mom, someone who cares about babies, is when a mom asks for, hey, what is the maternity leave policy and the employer is like we don't have that and then she just assumes she has no rights and then she goes back to work right after birth. I see that in the state of California where women can take up to seven months of time off, six months of paid leave, and women are just not doing that and I'm seeing it in the state of New York where there's also a more robust paid leave program or Massachusetts, which recently passed a really great framework that women are just not aware of. But they're asking the wrong questions. What's unfair here is that women are not educated on how to ask this question in the correct way and the correct way is to ask for your leave rights…. medical leave and or bonding leave… and you want to write it that way under FMLA and/or applicable state laws like that is the correct way to ask this question but it's super legal so it's uncomfortable. But that's the way to actually maximize your leave rights. When you're assuming your employer is going to educate you on your rights, you're wrong. I mean some do but they have no obligation to do that because you're asking them essentially, hey will you help me stay away from work longer? They're not going to do that, that is something that you have to figure out on your own. You will have to assert your rights in a way that maximizes your time off. That burden unfortunately is on your shoulders but because a lot of women assume oh my employer will help me with that right… wrong. It's just not true and it's kind of an unfair or naive expectation to have of your employer who exists to make money and to use your labor and the exchange the transaction. You have the agreement you have with your employer, is labor for money you know services for money. When you're asking for time off that goes against that assumption so and even though it's your right. It's a hard thing to ask for. But what you don't want to do is assume that your employer has your best interest at heart. Many do, many don't, and you don't quite know where yours will fall. I've seen kind of employers be super generous I've seen employers be uneducated and uninformed and I've seen employers be manipulative and malicious and you just don't quite know yet where yours will fall.
Rachael: Yeah, and it does suck you're right. It's so unfair that burden of proof is on us or that burden to know is on us. I will never forget being pregnant with my first baby and I was a teacher and so I went to like the HR department and I was asking basically what you said not to ask which was like, what is my maternity leave? Like what is it gonna look like? What do I get and she really had no idea. Like she had no idea how to explain it to me. I left so much more confused than I was when I had entered her office. And I just felt so defeated and I had to, you know, research everything myself. And my husband had to ask his workplace, too. And it just felt so confusing and it's such a shame that parents don't have the education or the resources to really have clear answers on this. And that it's really up to us to figure it out and to just wade through all of this misinformation too.
Daphne: Yeah, and a lot of people will default to HR or even that's the advice, I even see in the motherhood space and I'm always like stop, please, giving that advice like it drives me absolutely insane because you're preventing women take bonding time and you're actually helping women get back to work faster or they resign because they don't have the time that they think they have. So it's we just default to go to HR and you know, HR can be wonderful, but HR can exit, you know, they're paid by your employers. So there that's where their loyalty lies. I've worked with great HR Professionals who will act as a bridge, but there's no obligation, legal obligation, on HR to help you be with your baby. There's just none. The only thing they have to do is when you ask for your rights, very specifically in kind of illegally charged ways. We were discussing, they have to grant that assuming you're eligible. Like that is the only employer, the only obligation your employer has, and then they have to protect your leave. So while you're on leave, they cannot replace you permanently, and they cannot punish you for having a baby. That is the other obligation, assuming they know that you're pregnant and you had a baby. But that's kind of it. So everything else in terms of how do I figure this out? What are my rights? Your employer is not the best source for that information.
Rachael: Right? So what would you say is the best source for that information? I know you provide so many resources and you have a membership and all of that kind of thing. Is that a good spot for moms to go if they're really just lost on all of this stuff?
Daphne: Yes. I'll just claim it. Yes, it is. So I have a membership where I created a leave portal. So where you just go to your state and then it has your leave rights explained in the interpretation most generous to you, which means that if you want to maximize your time off and you want to learn how to do that, I give you the language on how to do that because it's written by a labor side employer, employment attorney, who's also a mom and I really care about moms and babies in a way that your employer doesn't. Another resource you can use is there's some nonprofits who do this, as well. But I would say that their information is not super clear. And then there's some government websites. But I think the risk with those is that it often provides a piece of the puzzle, but not the whole puzzle. And what you really truly need is to see the whole matrix of all right, what is the totality of my leave rights? And then am I eligible for benefits? And how does that fit under that? Because when you go to your government websites, first of all, they're not truly your ally, right? They're not your advocate. You may find some good information on there, but it's usually going to be incomplete because the government systems kind of act in isolation. There's like no one space that has all the answers. So you're already going to be cross-referencing. So you're kind of gonna be in this research mode that is exhausting and adds a lot of emotional and mental labor. So while I was seeing that, and I was getting so many of the same questions, that's when I created my membership because you just wanna have one place that kinda tells you what the state of your rights is, and then you wanna have it specific to your state because labor and employment law is state specific. And another risk of researching your own is that you might end up on a website that is in a different state, and that won't even apply to you. You might end up on a website that only talks about federal law, but you might have state rights that you didn't even know. So we wanna make sure that we have the most generous interpretation of the law, which you will usually only find on blogs and resources created by attorneys like me, labor and employment attorneys that help employees.
Rachael: Okay, and so then let's talk a little bit about what happens when baby's here, the maternity, whatever leave you got to take or decided to take is up and you're going back to work now. So I know the pump act was recently passed, so can you talk a little bit about how that has changed things or how you hope it might change things but when moms go back and they choose to breastfeed?
Daphne: Yeah, The Pump Act is awesome. Like I'm stoked about it because it's, and this is what I love about these federal laws is they kinda swoop in and just clarify everything 'cause it's so complicated. You're probably listening to this already feeling confused which is a natural reaction. And if you're not confused, you're not paying attention. And The Pump Act is super simple, which is beautiful when you have a law and that's why I'm so psyched about it. So The Pump Act says that anytime you have to pump, you're gonna go pump, you have to go pump. It's the most straightforward law. It also says that it applies to everyone which previously the state of pumping law was very, very, just all over the place. Like some people were eligible, some were not. You had to be lucky with your state but also whether you were salaried or hourly. So there were just so many intricacies in terms of figuring out your eligibility. As a result, so many people fell between the cracks. And also there was just mass confusion about it, both by employees and employers. In fact, this law was passed because employers actually backed it because they were so confused, too. The other exciting thing about The Pump Act is that it allows for true enforcement of your rights so that you can actually, you can claim remedies if so many, if your pumping rights are not respected, which that's also a new thing. So the pumping rights are very straightforward. Anytime you have to pump, they have to let you pump. It is you who decides. And that's where I see a lot of the issues because a lot of managers, they don't understand breastfeeding and they don't understand demand and supply. And they don't understand that you can't just wait. Just like you wouldn't tell a grownup to wait to go pee. You wouldn't go hold it. We're in the middle of a meeting. That would be kind of a wild thing to do. But that's kind of happening on mass with pumping because women are told to wait. Like, "Hey, can you do this then? Can you wait?" And as a result, we're in pain, our supplies dwindling. So the issue with pumping is that there's just a complete lack of education on what it actually means to be a lactating mother in the workplace. For example, employers now provide sexual harassment training. But when it comes to these maternity issues, most managers are clueless. So that creates this awkward situation where you have to talk to your boss about your boobs. Like, how do you do that? Right? No one wants to do that. And then you have to kind of explain how pumping actually works. So that's where I see most of the issues, especially with teachers. It's like, well, do I actually walk out of my classroom? Like, do I have to wait till lunchtime? And the answer to that is, your employer has to make sure there's enough staffing for you to pump, even if you're a teacher, even if you're a nurse. That is something that they will just have to figure out. So that's kind of revolutionary because it creates so much more power. It's a transfer of power to the mom, where she gets to say, I want to breastfeed. This is important to me. This is important to my baby. And the employer has truly like no choice and no control over the situation. Like, they just have to go along.
Rachael: Do they also have to provide a space?
Daphne: Yes, so the space has to be clean and not a bathroom and free from intrusion, which means that it has to have a lock. If your employer is sending you to the bathroom or to your car or some sort of like office kitchen where people walk in and out of or a space that has a security camera, these are all non -compliant spaces. Like, they actually have to figure out a space. If they cannot find a space, they have to buy something like a pod or like a little tent. So that there is privacy, but they have to find a space for you to pump.
Rachael: Yeah, I used to have to pump in my classroom. And I was kind of told that like, if I didn't want to do that, then I could go to the nurse's office. And I was like, well, my classroom it is then, I guess, because the nurse's office is disgusting. So yeah, I wish that I had had this back then. And that's wonderful to know that moms have that power with pumping and breastfeeding at least. Because I think, you know, we have talked about this before and just how after your baby's born, and before you become a mom, you might not even realize like how many things are gonna become important to you. And I don't know, the whole pumping and breastfeeding thing is so tough too, because then there are the moms who have babies who like won't take a bottle. And even pumping is hard because they're like, like, well, I am still having to separate from my baby and this is really, really hard. And we're asked to separate from them so, so early, which is really tough. And I know you talk a lot about that and how passionate you are about keeping moms and babies together for as long as the mom wants, wants back to be the case.
Daphne: Yeah, well, pumping is a tough thing to ask for because you already just went on leave. And before that, maybe you needed pregnancy accommodations. And you're, you're going to start to feel like you're exhausting your employer's generosity and that's a dangerous trap to fall into where you start to feel guilty when truly all you are accommodating. Right. All you're doing is your employer has to follow the law. Now, a lot of those things are going to be compounded during and after pregnancy. It's going to accumulate quickly, but it is the law. So just like, you're not going to feel bad for a car that has, that is hitting a lot of red lights. Like they have to stop every time. And I think we start to feel really guilty when we're asking for things at work because that's kind of how we've been conditioned. But really the system of how hard it is to be a mom and working is really stacked against us. So everything we can do to make that easier, we should do when we're thinking about corporations, they don't have any guilt over using tax benefits or doing mass layoffs. Like they're going to do what's in their best interest always. They're taking advantage of these PPP loans that no one's paying back. Like they're going to always do these things that are within the realm of the law as long as it is allowed. And as employees, as women, as moms, we have to do that, too. We already don't have federal paid leave. We don't have childcare under age of five. We don't have the child allowance. You know, I grew up in Belgium where like all parents get money from the government just for being parents, in addition to free education starting at three months, in addition to benefits, in addition to burnout leave if you need it. You know, there's so many programs available. I remember like this during the summer, walking over to the local town square area and there were like summer camps set up and it was all sponsored by the government. And we just went and there are these counselors and there's so there's already all these things we don't have. So the last thing you want to feel is guilt because it's really not that much we're asking for.
Rachael: No, not at all.
Daphne: But it's still hard. But yeah, what I'm really passionate about is reminding women that capitalism and by extension your employer that exists within capitalism benefits from separation of the mother and the baby because they want your hands to be free to serve them. And the best way they do that is by you putting your baby down. So you holding your baby and then you breastfeed, it's a revolutionary thing to do. And it goes against the norm, which is why it's hard. And it goes against the common story of capitalism, which we all exist in and we also have to pay rent. So it feels risky to ask things of your employer because what if you get fired right when you need the income and health care? So those are all things that are going to feel very acute during a really vulnerable time. And just reminding women that your baby is more important, like your baby just is more important than whatever operational challenges are going on at work, you know, whatever your employer needs from you, they can get from someone else or they can ask of you later. It is just not as important as your baby being okay and you being okay every time categorically. So always advocating for yourself also means you're advocating for your baby and that's something you will never regret. The reverse you will regret if regret you will regret Giving your employer too much of your time attention and resources that should be going to your baby. That's something that you will hold and carry with you, but it is also hard to do to advocacy in the workplace. It's hard. It's a skill that you have to learn, you know It's something I learned as a lawyer, Over many years that now I'm trying to teach women. Keeping in mind that it's okay It's okay to put yourself first right now, and that baby needs you more than your boss needs you.
Rachael: Yes, oh my gosh. I'm so glad you just touched on all of that because I on Hey sleepy baby on Instagram I talk about this a lot about how you know Sleep training is just not really that much of a thing and so many other places of the world because they don't really need it To be a thing like they're not having to go back to work when Their child is still so little and so needy and and our society asks that of moms and dads and That's you know why sleep training I think has become so popular or one of the reasons. I should say not not entirely. It's a cultural thing too, but yeah, you're right. It's and it's something that I think as a mom for at least me, I Started to just really not care about work. Yeah, like I was a teacher and like I you know People in those types of professions do care about you know Students or you care about your patients if you're a doctor or whatever it is but at the end of the day like the most important thing becomes your baby and your little family. Yes, I think sometimes we become a little bit apathetic to work, but it's still So ingrained in us and we're so socialized to like sit down, be quiet , Don't make waves, don't ask for too much and so you know, I think that can happen too is like like, even if we don't feel like we have to give everything to our job anymore, we're still, we're like not allowed to take a break or to ask for too much or things like that. So I think it can be really hard, but I love that you kind of just encourage people to speak up and to know their rights because that's the most empowering thing is to just know what you're entitled to, right?
Daphne: Right. And it's normal to feel scared because your employment is tied to health care and survival and those are very primal needs, right? Like we don't want to gloss over them or minimize them or push those aside,like truly allowing this fear to exist and then recognizing that there's kind of risk anyway with your job. Like I've, this whole year, I've been talking to women who were laid off during these mass laidoffs and a lot of times they were pregnant or postpartum and there's really nothing I could do about that. And recognizing that your job is always at risk kind of despite what you do and then acting accordingly and having, you know, trying to have a good saving fund and what you're asking for your community to help you, you know, like at the baby shower instead of asking for the snoo, you can ask for them to fund your maternity fund so that you have like the financial freedom and support that you really need because truly what women need is cash. They don't need all this stuff. And I just see communities buying all these things and I'm like, put that money in her bank account.
Rachael: Yes. Oh my gosh.
Daphne: She's going to need financial freedom, but that fear is very legitimate and very normal and, you know, education is a tough job as a mom because you're like, I mean, honestly, you're leaving your child to care for other children and you're not supported in that job. You don't have the benefits and support you need. It's also unsafe. And so it feels like a really rough deal, especially, I mean, it should be the most paid job like for that kind of a sacrifice and effort and contribution. And when we're talking about sleep training, one thing I'm very sensitive of is when I see the moms attack each other and the mommy words about the sleep training and the formula. And it's like, truly no one's talking about the real culprit here. Like you said, like the, we're just not supported. So if you are falling asleep at the wheel, because your employer is not giving you enough time off, and it's being really tough on you, then you may feel like you have no choice. And what we want to help women with this agency and feeling like they have the authority over their own life, especially during this time. So if we were to support moms during this transition, we would see a huge change when it comes to sleep training, when it comes to postpartum depression, anxiety, when it comes to breastfeeding. But because we're not there, a lot of women are forced into figuring something out so it can be fixed. And that's really unfair, because the only person who's benefited by that is the employer.
Rachael: Do you think we are in any way close to real big policy changes in this country with regards to family leave or childcare or any of that? Like what is your prediction?
Daphne: So this is something we've been working on through the Chamber of Mothers, which is an organization I co-founded, which is about motherhood advocacy. And we go to D.C. and we have these discussions. And I mean, we're working towards it, whether the conditions are ripe, it's going to take all of us. That's kind of what I've learned about it is that it's going to take all of us. And what the challenge I see is that we don't trust our government. So when we think about whether we need to create more systems that our government controls, there's a lot of resistance to that. And as a result, when it comes to benefits and childcare, some people do not want the government to be in charge of that. But as a result, right now, we're in a vacuum, like we have nothing. And then there's this idea of like, well, we don't want the government to do that. So right, it's just, that's kind of the fight right now. But I think we will eventually get there. I think most importantly, a lot of states are getting there. And when it comes to when it comes to these kind of support systems, we really want to keep our eye on our state and also vote with our feet. And, and you can, you know, a woman in California or in Massachusetts, it's going to have an entirely different experience than a woman in Alabama or Mississippi. That's just the truth. And so just keeping an eye on your state and making sure that you also pay attention to your state politics, which a lot of us don't do, we really focus on the presidential office. But I think we're, you know, like just the moms showing up in DC really excites me, you know, that in and of itself is revolutionary and having these conversations and really holding the people in power accountable on it and sharing our stories and, and showing the data. Another thing I see is just a complete lack of information education. When you're talking to people who have had a parenting experience decades ago, maybe they had a stay at home wife or maybe they had to live in nanny or both, usually both, or even a mom who had kids many, many years ago, and she was so unsupported that she feels like I did it. So, you know, like, you should all do it. So there's a lot of that. But I think it's going to take time and it's going to take all of us, but I do trust and believe that we will get there.
Rachael: I love that. And yeah, the Chamber of Mothers is doing such incredible work. I'm glad that you brought that up, and I'll link to it in the show notes if anybody is interested in checking it out. It's really an amazing cause to
Daphne: Join us, join the movement.
Rachael: Yes, please do. Well, Daphne, thank you so much for all of this incredible information. I hope that everyone listening feels a little bit more empowered and a little bit more knowledgeable about your rights at work. Can you just run down really quickly where people can find you and access all of your other amazing resources and content?
Daphne: So on Instagram, I'm themamattorney. And then if you go to my link in bio, I have a ton of resources. I have some templates that you can use in your emails with management. For example, on the pregnant workers accommodations, act on pump act, so that you don't you're not concerned about what is the right language to use. How do I make sure that it's legally protected? I have a ton of templates. I have some free guides and then I have a membership as well where you can learn about your rights. And we have just some mini courses and just kind of whatever you need to fix your specific problem. We try to provide information on that so that you don't feel confused and stuck in overwhelm. So when you go to my Instagram and then click on the link, it will guide you to where you need to go.
Rachael: Okay, perfect. And then one last question that I try to remember to ask everybody that joins the podcast is what is one thing we didn't get to talk a whole lot about your own personal journey as a mom, but before you became a parent, what is one thing that you really wish people had told you? Or what was one thing that you were just completely unprepared for in parenthood?
Daphne: Oh, wow. Prepare to meet yourself. I have transformed since motherhood and I have been broken open and then put back together better. And my heart has grown. I'm a better human. Like I'm truly a better, deeply compassionate person. So I would say prepare to become a better human. Like it's going to be, you know, we always hear the fear things like you'll never sleep and, you know, but I think what we don't hear enough is that it will transform you. Motherhood is a benevolent force and that you will meet yourself in the most profound way and in a way that there's no other container or portal for it other than motherhood, it's the only thing that could have brought me to where I am.
Rachael: I have chills. Thank you so much, that was beautiful, I love it, thanks so much Daphne have a great rest of your day.
Daphne: You’re so welcome.
