Fostering a Secure Attachment

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Welcome back to No One Told Us. Today, I'm talking to Michelle Charriere, who was a birth to five mental health specialists and the brains behind the Instagram -page babies and brains, which is super popular. She has a background in community behavioral health and previously worked in home with families involved in the foster care system, providing psychoeducation on attachment trauma and development to help caregivers better understand and support their children. She created Babies and Brains to reach more caregivers around the globe and provides information and support through her digital courses, guides and social media content. And we talk almost every day, so it's so fun to actually talk to you in person and not just in our like Instagram chats, so hi.
Hi, I know, I'm so excited to be on here. I know I think I've chatted with you on video maybe like twice, but we still talk every day in our little chat.
I know, it's so fun. So we're kind of like in real life here. Maybe someday we'll actually get to isn't it weird that like you can be so close with people that you've never even met in real life like these internet friends that we have. It's very strange.
I never would have thought it would have been me because I always was like I was super into catfish and I was like I could just never be friends or like have a relationship with a random.
I get it now. I understand. I get it too. How those people down those relationship rabbit holes. So you started your page actually kind of around the same time as me, right? Like very beginning pandemic times, right?
Yeah, it was July 2020. So I think a few months after you did. So yeah, okay, pandemic time.
Yeah, it was kind of like a perfect storm back then, I guess. And your pages really taken off and it's super popular. People love you. I feel like you've got that like community of raving fans who just like really are into you like as a person, like they don't just love the information you provide, but they feel that kind of like parasocial like friendship with you. And I think that's because you do such a good job of like sharing without oversharing parts of like your personal life and your struggles and behind the scenes of your business, which I think is super refreshing to see. Because I think a lot of people just assume that, you know, to have a page online or to be a content creator or something, you must have it all together. So I love that you're really honest about that kind of stuff.
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because I actually have been having this like struggle in my head with myself where I'm like, I don't feel like I'm doing enough, like not showing enough of my personal life because it's such a hard balance with like, I don't want to be invasive to my child's privacy or like my husband's privacy. And then some days I'm like, I'm "I'm not doing anything. Like, do people want to see that I'm not doing anything? It's just such a tough balance. So I appreciate you saying that because I've been beating myself up over it. It's just so hard.
It is. Well, and it's like, there's going to be people that dislike or love you like no matter what. So that's kind of what I've come to terms with over the last few years of doing this is like, I am just going to share what I feel like sharing at the the end of the day because people are going to like me or not like me regardless of what I do. And it really has like very little to do with me. It's just how people respond and react to what you're putting out there. But I think when you talk about things you're passionate about, people are automatically going to be drawn to that. So that brings me to the topics for today, which are your topic that you love to talk about on your page and to educate about. You mostly talk about things through the lens of attachment. That's kind of like your specialty and like what people really come to you for and know you for. So maybe we could start with just like a very basic definition of what we're meaning when we talk about attachment. Cause we're not talking about attachment parenting. We're talking about attachment theory. So can you talk a little bit about what that means and what the difference is for people who might not know?
Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of misconception around that. And I think it's just because of just the language, like attached can be like anything. It's like close proximity. You know, I'm so attached to my teddy bear or my dog or whatever. But when we're talking about, you know, this innate biological need that a child has, it's completely different. And so it's not wrong to say like, I'm so attached to my child. But if we're looking through the lens of attachment theory, we're looking at that child's relationship with their caregiver. So that caregiver is who they seek, nurturance, protection, and care from. And this isn't just like a relationship built on, I played with you one time, or I had a lot of fun with you, or I get excited to see you. Like this child is depending on this caregiver to keep them alive. And so I think that's the misconception is that it's just like a relationship.
Anybody that you like, you're attached to, and it's like, no, like this child depends on this person to keep them alive and survive. And so it's a lot deeper than that. And it's primed, you know, in their innate mechanisms. So their physiology builds or prompts them to build these relationships. So it's a lot more serious than just the word attached. And when we're talking about attachment parenting, that's like more of like a prescriptive set of principles. And none of those things are wrong. It was introduced by Dr. William and Martha Sears and so they said, you know, like things like baby wearing and bedding close to the baby and breastfeeding that those things help a baby be more attached. And it's not that that's wrong but you don't have to do those things to build attachment. You can build attachment with a bottle fed baby with a baby who sleeps in their crib. And so it's not that simple.
And I think that's where we go wrong as long as when we try to simplify it. it, like you do A, B, and C, and you're going to have a secure attachment. So again, none of those things are wrong, but they're not what leads a child to security.
And I think that's what's so hard for people to understand too. And especially when we're on social media, and we want like quick tips and like little facts and things like that, I see people asking you all the time, like in your Q &As and stuff like that, like, what do I need to do to get a secure attachment? And they want you to just tell them like, Oh, just do this, this and this. and then you'll have a secure attachment. And it's, like you said, it's just not really that simple. But what are, like, the attachment types or the attachment styles?
Yeah, so broadly, there's, you know, secure, and then there's insecure. And there's no such thing as a child being unattached, really, because a child can't survive without a caregiver. So if there's not an attachment figure present,
then that child's not going to thrive and be alive. So really there's always going to be a figure, but the attachment quality is not always going to be great. Great, excuse me. It's not just I'm attached, so it's secure. So insecure attachment occurs when there's inconsistencies in that relationship where that child isn't quite sure of what to expect from that parent. They can't fully depend on that parent or if that parent is a source of fear and harm. And so we have those resistant anxious attachments, the ambivalent ones, and then disorganized, which is the type where children are really in a relationship where they're experiencing abuse from parents. And so attachment really differs based on the interactions.The attachment quality, excuse me, differs based on those interactions in the relationship.
OK. Okay. And so some of those more, you know, avoidant or insecure attachments are probably what you saw in your line of work before you were doing this. And so what was it that actually made you want to go into that line of work? And then what made you want to leave?
Yeah, it's so funny, because I initially went to school to be a dentist, like, so different from what I do now.
Did I know that? That’s wild.
You have great teeth, it makes sense.
Thank you. Yeah, I was in pre -med for two years before I changed courses. And honestly part of it was like, I cannot do this like organic chemistry crap. Like it was so hard. I was like, maybe this isn't for me. But yeah, I just switched to psychology and then I actually got a job. My first job in behavioral health was behavior coaching. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's very like ABA, planned ignoring that type of thing.
Unfortunately, very, very familiar with that from my work in special ed and like I'm horrified by the things I used to do and recommend and refer out to, you know, different agencies like that. I mean, some are not bad, but that's like a whole nother story. But yeah, I am. Yeah. The ignoring. Yeah. That could be a whole other topic, but yeah.

And I mean, I recommended some terrible things. And the thing that really kills me when I think back to it is those kids were all from the foster care system. Most of them were. And I was teaching parents to like do planned ignoring. So when I'm here teaching this stuff now, like I'm not judging people who've done those things or who've, you know, promoted those things. But I just see through different lens now and I and in that work that I was doing I always worked with the really young kids and so that's when I decided to go to school for my graduate degree which was in infant family practice and that's where I really honed in on like maternal mental health infant mental health and the parent -child relationship and then that's where I kind of like had my world like turn a little bit and I used to argue with my teachers a little bit like about ABA I was like no it's good and it works and it's evidence -based. And now like here I am today. And I'm like, that's really so funny.
If they could see you now. Right?
Yeah, well, they, they do, I still keep in touch with them. They're amazing. Well, that's awesome. Yeah, it's just, it's a husband and a wife. It was like a small cohort little program. So yeah, that's really what got me into doing what I'm doing now. And I've been in community or I was in community behavioral health for almost a decade before I started babies and brains. So that's really like the bulk of my experience. Like this is still relatively new, you know,
doing it this way.
And you started, you started the page even before you became a mom. And I remember people would like, you know, when you would get trolls or something, they would kind of like hate on you for that like, oh, just wait till you're a parent, like just wait till you have a baby. So what are some things that have changed since you've had a baby in terms of like the advice you give or has nothing really changed And like, you still believe in what you believe?
Yeah, I would say so like my core principles and beliefs, those things have not changed. If anything, they're just like more solidified and whatnot. But I think just like, I mean, how can you explain just like the change of like becoming a parent and like just raising how hard it is? It's like, that's really what has changed for me. Like I never doubted that it was hard. Like I always had so much empathy for parents and I mean, I worked with parents in their home. Like I was literally in homes, like during the dinner chaos when kids were coming home from school. Like I was involved in all of that. Like I was a part of the family. Like I'd been in some homes until 9 p .m. some days. So like I never doubted, yeah, I never doubted that it was difficult, but it's just so different once you start living it. And it's like, oh my gosh, like sometimes like I'm not following the things that I teach. I mean, to be real, like, I'm... having moments where I'm having a hard time.
And yeah, but I like that.Oh, yeah. Yeah. And but I like that piece of it because then I could just be like, Hey, like, I really do get it now. And that piece was missing before there's a difference between like having empathy and then also being like, I actually get it. I'm in the shoes that you are in. So totally, that's what changed the most for me.
Like your own kids just trigger you. like nobody else. And like I was a teacher forever. And I feel like I used to be, I used to be so patient with my students. Like I had students with really big behaviors, I would have things thrown at me, I would be cussed out. I was like thrown. I mean, I'm little like my students in fifth grade were bigger than me. I was thrown against walls, like choked out like everything you could imagine. And I was able to just keep such composure. And now my kid like looks at me the wrong way and I'm like ready to lose my shit. So like it's just, there's something about it being your own kids that makes it so different.
Yeah. And I think it's just like the unrelenting nature of it. Like when you're working with children, you get to like clock out and like write your little notes and say goodbye and leave it at the door. But like, I mean, I sleep with my son. and then I wake up and I'm like trying to run a business and he's screaming outside my door. It's just stimulation all the time. But I like to talk about that stuff because that's what everyone else is experiencing too. So I know I'm not alone in it, but I think other people are way more judgmental of themselves. Like with the information I share, they're like, well, I can't do that all the time. Like, I'm not, am I not supporting my child's attachment? I'm like, I don't do that all the time. You don't need to do it all the time.
No, nobody can be perfect 100 % of the time. That's a crazy expectation to have of ourselves. I know you can't give a prescription or you can't give us X,
Y, Z. will give you a secure attachment to your kid. But what are some general things that do tend to support a healthy secure attachment?
So, when we're talking from the child's perspective in what they need developmentally, attachment theory looks at this balance between exploration seeking and proximity seeking. So, when your child goes out to explore their world, and that doesn't mean that they're completely separate from you, it just means that their focus is shifted to a toy or something in the environment. That is where they are learning and growing. It's important for them, for their development to be able to do that, to interact with the world around them and have safe interactions with the world around them. And so that is one key component, is our ability to support that exploration.
So we have to obviously keep the environment safe and set boundaries that are appropriate, but also give them space to do their thing, like we're not being intrusive and interrupting the process unless there's a safety issue. And so we want to have some balance with that. And then the proximity seeking piece is, our children still need to be near us. They're going to seek support from us. If something becomes overwhelming, they're going to share joy with us if they saw something in their world that they were excited about. And so it's our availability there to accept them back in that is also another really important piece. So attachments, not just about the proximity, but supporting that exploration piece as well.
And then we want to see a caregiver who is able to tend to those emotional experiences with attunement. So that means meeting your child where they're at. We're not distracting them out of their emotional experiences all the time. We're really meeting them in an understanding and non -judgmental way. But not letting emotions run the show all the time. So we have that balance with boundaries. Like, I know you're really upset about this and I can't let you do that. And so I think a lot of parents have this like fluffy kind of bunnies and rainbows mindset with attachment, but boundaries are super important when it comes to attachment because it helps our children feel safe. So those are three of the main components.
And then of course we want a caregiver who's regulated, you know, who's able to understand their own internal experiences, work through those, and seek out support when necessary, and understand when they have to repair with their children.
Yeah, can you talk a little bit about repair and what that looks like and when that's important and why that's important because repair is so huge that's probably been my biggest like aha moment since becoming a parent and when I went through like the circle of security parenting certification course it was like one of my main takeaways and something that my husband and I do almost daily with our kids is repair. So can you talk a little bit more about that?
Yeah, of course. I love talking about repair. And I think there's a lot of, there's just so many misconceptions around everything to do with attachment, but with repair, you know, parents are often thinking like this big explosion has to happen. And then we have to beg for forgiveness and like it's this whole thing. But like you kind of said, every day there are going to be little moments where something we did didn't align with how we want to parent. It didn't align with our child's needs in that moment. And that could be anything as simple as like, our child is crying and we have to step away for a second. You know, maybe it's not a huge explosion, maybe we take a deep breath, but we reconnect. And so repair isn't about having those perfect scripts. It's more about re -establishing that connection and, again, that attunement piece. So, having that harmony with our child and their internal world and their emotional experiences. And so repair can happen for those big explosive moments where we lose our shit and we yell.
But it can also happen when maybe we're just really busy with something and we know that our child needed us and we just couldn't step away in that moment. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It could just be like, Hey, I heard you. You really wanted mom and mom was busy on a phone call, you know, and then just pulling them up on your lap and just like taking a deep breath with them or spending a little moment with them. It doesn't have to be like this big ordeal. And it can happen multiple times a day.
So one thing I want to bring up though, because you gave me such a great, sorry, when you talked about repairing with Otto about sleep training, like that was I loved that so much. And I've actually shared that example when people have individually asked me because people always ask like, can I repair something that happened years ago? And I just wanted to say that I love that. And it was really helpful.
For those who don't know that story, I shared it, I think in just Instagram stories, like casually one day. So yeah, so I sleep trained using a pretty aggressive ferber methods several times for several weeks at a time when Otto was a baby. You know, this, we're not gonna, we don't have to go deep into sleep training because it's not all about that right now. But I do regret it. It did really hurt our relationship in my opinion. And it didn't work. So it was kind of like all for nothing and felt like a huge waste. And he was really, really disturbed by it as a baby and seemed to, you know, have a really, really tough time with it. But I kind of told him about it one day. He was five, maybe this was maybe a year ago or so, he was about five. And we were kind of talking about, I think we were talking about my job. And he was just kind of like asking questions about what I do. And I kind of explained to him like what sleep training is or like what I did with him when he was a baby. And as I was talking about it, I could see his face and he was just kind of like this,
it was like this inquisitive face like what? Why would you do that to me?
And I was like, you know, I really thought I was doing the best thing and you know, your doctor told me that it was okay to do and other people told me it was okay to do and I really shouldn't have listened to them and I shouldn't have done that and I'm really sorry And I really do regret doing that when you were a baby and I wish that I had done it differently. And that was really it and And you know, he hasn't brought it up since I haven't brought it up since. But I was just like, you know, on the off chance that like this is somewhere stored in his body from when he was an infant, why not? Like what it's not gonna, you know, I have very low ego when it comes to my kids because they've just like broken me down at this point. And they've just, you know, humbled the crap out of me. So I have absolutely no problem. apologizing to them for whatever, whether I thought I was justified or not, right, all that matters is their experience of and their perception of what happened.
So yeah, I'm glad that you've shared that with other people and it's helpful because I think, you know, we do have this guilt sometimes of things that we wish we did differently or that we did because we thought we were doing the best thing and then we learned this new information that means, oh, shit, maybe we didn't make the right choice or didn't do that in the way that we wish we had. So, I mean, we're always, we're all learning, right? We're always doing the best we can in the moment with what information we have.
And I had no idea about any of this stuff back then. And it was only six years ago. So I'm glad that.
Yeah. And that reflection piece like you were talking about is so important. And we really have to kind of lower those walls that we put up. Like if we're feeling shame because of, you know, something we did to our kids or just the way we interacted with them then we're really going to block those repair opportunities. So like you said with the ego like we have to reflect we have to be like you know I in this moment wasn't so great but that doesn't mean that I'm not a good parent it was just this moment and we just have to acknowledge it and acknowledging like you said you're like maybe he doesn't remember anything but like just that acknowledgement piece it puts like it opens that opportunity where if it is something that was stored in them or it's something that's bothering them ongoing, they know they can talk to you because you put it out there. And so I think that's with repair, it's not just that moment. It's the expectation and that relationship that you're creating ongoing.
Yeah. And just while we're on the subject of sleep training, because I know you have talked about this on your page and on your TikTok and stuff, and you've gotten a lot of flack for it, because it's not a super popular opinion to come out against sleep training. But the main question people want to know is, does sleep training harm attachment? And I know that this is a loaded question, but what is your take on that?
Yeah. So, it's hard because there's not one isolated factor that we can look at and just be across the board, this damages attachment, other than an apparent being outright,like physically abusive and neglecting their children, which I know some people will argue that sleep training falls under that. I personally don't just label sleep training as abusive and neglectful because we know that for every child, it's going to look and it's going to feel different. Every parent is going to implement it in different ways. So I don't do any of that broad labeling type stuff. So I do think for some children, it could, you know, disrupt that attachment relationship, but I also think for some it doesn't. So, and that's, people don't like that nuanced space, they just want you to say yes or no.

Right.
And when you get on the internet and you say something that's kind of a gray area, then you get attacked for like not having sources or like being wishy -washy and it's like.
You get attacked from both sides when you have that gray area. Like you get attacked from the prosleep training people for saying, you know, talking shit, they think about sleep training. And then you get the other extreme people, the super anti sleep training people who are saying like, why won't you just call it abuse? And it's like, well, I mean, guys, come on, like there's, there's a lot to unpack here in the middle, like in reality.
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, like, for, for kids who've experienced separations, like disruptions in their attachment. relationship. So I think about foster children and foster care, like, would I think that sleep training would be healthy for that relationship? Like if they were in a new home, new foster parents, like, should that foster parent practice sleep training to help build up build that relationship? Probably not. Like I actually think that could be traumatic in some ways because that child likely, you know, was left in their crib, you know, in a soil diaper, you know because neglect is, you know, one of the number one reasons that children under one come into care, at least in Arizona. Um, so yeah, I wouldn't recommend it then. And so that's kind of my view with sleep training.
Like we know that the practice doesn't align with what we know supports attachment. But does that mean that it automatically or inherently damages attachment? We can't say that. So we have to kind of, yeah.
So it's like a case by case. by case basis, really. And sleep training also means a lot of different things depending on who you ask. So there's also that, how are you implementing it? How long are you doing it for? How old is the baby? There's so many different factors that could play into it, right? And yeah, so I'm glad you don't make sweeping comments about it because, like we said, everybody's just trying to do their best. Oh, I wanted to go back one one second because you were talking about for supporting a healthy attachment, you want to have this balance of the exploration and the coming back to reconnect.
And I think that this is so important for parents to understand because just like anything else on social media, we see so many extremes like we were just saying. On one side, I see so much noise on social media about the importance of kids being independent.

Right. And so like kind of taking that exploration side of of things to the extreme, like they should be independently playing for hours and hours on end every single day. And then there's the other side that's, you know, the very attachment based side that's like, you know, you have to be co sleeping and baby wearing and involving your kids in all of your daily activities. And like, that's not really realistic for a lot of people either. So what do you see as healthy balance? How can a parent know that they're creating that healthy balance for their child or at least the opportunity for it? And how can they look at their child and see like, okay, they're exploring enough, but they're also coming back to me for reassurance and reconnection enough?
Yeah. I think an easier way to think of it rather than just observing their child's behaviors is really kind of looking inward. Like how do I feel when my child is doing this thing? So when my child... is seeking to explore and play and interact with their world, am I relaxed or am I full of anxiety? Because we know that children are looking to their parents as early as 10 months old. They're looking at our facial expressions to, you know, determine how they should feel about a situation. So if they're trying to explore, that's the need in that moment. And we're like, we're all uptight about it. Or we're like, don't leave me. Don't leave mama. Just stay with mama. That is where the problem lies, and that's what can create insecurity. Of course, if there's actual danger present, like there's a dog running around the playground or something, you do want to be on alert and anxious and pulling your child in. We're talking about overall patterns where there's no danger present, but you're having a hard time supporting your child's exploration.
And that can also happen with the other piece. When they're seeking closeness, are you feeling open to that? Are you feeling regulated and able to welcome them in? Or are you feeling uncomfortable and pushing them away?
Yeah, okay, that's a really good way to think about it too. And I think when I do question boxes and stuff, I always got questions about this. And a lot of parents, I think feel like we're supposed to be entertaining our kids all the time, or like, I don't know, putting on a show for them because I'll be like I'll get questions like how do you entertain your kids because I know you don't use a lot of screen time and it's like I don't entertain them like they go play and sometimes people will push back and be like yeah but I feel so guilty when they're just playing by themselves or playing with their toy or just like hanging around in the house and I'm not interacting with them. I'm like oh my gosh you guys you do not have to be like down on the floor all day long to have a healthy attached healthily attached child or a securely attached child, right?
Yeah, and I think that part is hard because, and I do understand some of that concern because my son is not the type of child who just goes in plays. He's starting to do it a little bit more, he's 21 months, but we really always had to be very present and involved. We could be sitting in the same room and he maybe would do a little bit, but we could not be out of eyesight. And so now, now if he does go and play, we kind of are like, wait, like what's happening? Like we kind of feel like we need to go see what he's doing. And so I do, I do think it can be hard just based on your child's temperament. And then they start doing this thing they've never done before. Yeah, but do I feel like I need to entertain?
I wouldn't say I don't, I don't feel like I need to entertain. It's more like I need to be available, which I think there's a difference there. Like I don't feel like I have to have like a clown suit on, but like I do need to be available if he's looking for me kind of thing.
Yes. Okay. The independence thing will probably come with time because I think your son is a little bit similar in temperament, I think to my oldest and he really didn't independent play until he was like four and a half. And we used to just be like, Oh my God, why do we have to be playing with him all the time? Or like, why do we have to be right next to him all the time? And then now he'll like, he's home sick today and he's been playing Legos and coloring for the last like six hours and we barely had to do anything. So it's very nice. It comes. It comes.
Oh my gosh. So it like only four more years.
Yeah. So only four more years. Just hang in there, mama.
Okay. I got this.
You're so strong.
Okay. Back to controversial topics. Another thing that you talk a lot about and that you talk about, I think really well, but that people do have very strong reactions to is childcare and utilizing things like daycare. What would you say to a family that is trying to decide whether or not they wanna use some form of daycare, a nanny, do a stay at home situation with one of the parents or another caregiver? I mean, is there like an ideal situation from the kid's perspective or does it really just kind of depend on the care that's available?
I mean, my answer I feel like is partially partially gonna get me in trouble, but also so I'm like, oh, how do I answer this? So for a child ideally, you know, we would just keep them where it's most familiar. Yeah, that creates the least amount of, you know, know, transition and possible stress, you know, having to deal with the change. But children can adjust to change. So change isn't going to just be always be a bad thing. It's not inherently bad. But obviously, that would be the easiest because it's just like, they're home with us, like, we don't have to really change much. So and it's hard because as far as childcare, like, that would be like a nanny in your house right? They would be in their familiar environment.
But that is not accessible to everybody. I couldn't even have a nanny right now. So I don't like to just talk about it in that way because we really have to think about the family's overall needs, not just the child, but why is this family seeking childcare? Do they need to work from home? And they have a really loud, my child is a screamer. Do they need them to just be out of the house for a few hours? And so they go to a childcare center, you know, we have to think about the family as a whole. We can't just think like, okay, the child just has to be kept home because that's not ideal and that doesn't work for every family.
Yeah, exactly. And if the parents are super stressed out and taking it out on the kid because they're home and they're just being a kid and making noise like that's not going to be great for their relationship either. So it really just totally depends. So what would you say are some things that would be like green flags for a child care center? So parents are looking for a nanny or looking for a child care center or like a little in -home daycare or something like that. What would you say are the best things that or the most important things that they should be looking for? Facilitating healthy attachment and, you know, easing separation anxiety and things like that.
Yeah, for a center versus like a private provider, that's going to be a little bit different as far as what you're looking for and as far as like the flexibility that you have because a center is going to just operate how they operate. And so it versus a nanny where like they're really working individually for you. But in a center, I do want to see them open to supporting a child's settling in process. So not like, okay, you just drop them off and run. And I see a lot of or I hear a lot of parents say that like, well, my daycare provider told me that is better for me Not to stick around if they're screaming and to just leave….. and I hate that Because I think there's some nuance there.
Yeah, I do think there's like there's gray area there Like I always tell people like I talk about this in my child care guide Like if you're confidently making the decision to stay and help your child settle… That's one thing. but if you are an anxious mess and you're trying to leave and then you're like, wait, oh, no, oh, no, like I can't leave. That is going to just create more anxiety in your child. So in that case, maybe you need to step out and kind of let the transition happen. So I hate when it's just like, you know, this one thing works for everybody. I don't think parents are just so intuitive. They know their children best. And so if you want to stay and settle them, like, I think that the daycare should be open to that process. So that's that would be like my number one green flag is like they support that process.
Okay, and you do have a childcare and preschool guide, right?
Yeah, yeah, it's, I keep adding to it every year. It's like a hundred pages now. So there's like a bunch of insight in there. And I talk about how to choose, you know, the best childcare center or the best nanny or even family member care, like what are some pros and cons to that as well? Because every option is going to have pros and cons and it's not that one thing is bad and one thing is the best. It's really just going to depend on each individual family.
For nannies, for private providers, I really encourage parents to do like an observation and meet with them a couple of times first, like have a meeting with them first by yourself and just feel out the vibe because if you don't feel good about them in that first first meeting, that's not going to happen. I encourage parents to do like an observation and meet with them a couple of times first by yourself and just feel out the vibe because if you don't feel good about them in that first meeting, that's not going to happen. don't even go further like Don't waste your time there because if you don't vibe with them like your child's not going to because your child's looking to you To get that
signal about how they should feel about this person.
So that's like number one. How do you feel in the presence of this person and what kind of relationship are you guys going to build together? that is my number one like not the degrees of the nanny or the Certifications or the experience like what's that relationship like? Do you feel good about this person? That's number one.
Yeah. Okay. Love it. And so you go through that more in your guide and we are almost out of time, but I know you have lots of other guides and courses too. So I'll link those all in the show notes. I have to ask you something that is the most important now, which is Bravo Related. Because you're a fellow Bravoholic like myself.
Yes.
Yes. Now, one more question I get all the time is what the best housewife franchise is. Specifically, I think a lot of parents or a lot of moms at least that are listening to this might be like prepping for a maternity leave or they might have like lots of time coming up where they get to like start a new show and binge. So they always want to know what the best housewives to start with is. What is your professional opinion?
Yeah, I always tell people New Jersey because I love like I love how they're it's just like the family relations that I think bring a new level of drama to it. Like they are family and like they don't get to escape each other whereas like other franchises like their friends that rotate out and sometimes it's kind of like manufactured it's like we're sending you on vacation together like this is like real family stuff so that's who I recommend. And they stay consistent with their drama and like how exciting they are. So I think that's the best one to start with. I know that everyone's opinion is different there.
Well, I was gonna say, I don't know if I've ever heard somebody give that opinion is like, that is their top. But that, I mean, those classic OG New Jersey episodes with Teresa, like paying for $100 ,000 furniture and cash and like there's just nothing better. So I sign off on that New Jersey, New York and Beverly Hills to me are like, those early seasons are just classic housewives. And then I also really love Potomac now, but I'm not totally caught up.
I don't think I watched last season. I feel like such an imposter with Bravo. I don't think I'm even up to date on like the last season that came out last year on Potomac.
Well, it's so hard because there's so many. I mean, now that you're a parent too, like I'm lucky if I watched 20 minutes of TV a day at this point. So it's just hard to keep up with all of them. I'm like, I don't feel like I used to for a different franchise every night. Okay, last question. Bravo related. Fuck Mary Kill. Tom edition. Tom Sandavol, Luann's Tom. I don't even know his last name. And Tom Gerardi.
Oh, this is like so hard. I wish like, it was like, Tom. Oh my God. Wait, so wait, Tom. Luann's Tom is the one I'm least familiar with. I think I would say
He's the guy that used to like make out with everybody at the Regency. Oh, yeah
Okay, well, I think he was Sonya's guy, but then you know that whole thing.
Yeah, okay, okay, okay I think I would well, okay if I marry Tom Gerardi am I like in legal trouble?
Maybe Erica was Erica was on the hook, but she was she was let off. She ended up being fine But she did lose a lot of money. That's a tough one.
Dang, I feel like, this is so hard. Why would you do this to me? I think I would, ew, who the, I guess I would just have to eff Sandoval because I just don't want to do it with an old man.
He was a model, it could be worse.
Yeah, so that would be just very like superficial. And then I would probably kill Luann's Tom and marry Tom Gerardi and just like maybe live out, live my like rich life for a while and then suffer the consequences.
Okay, that's a solid choice.. Alright, my last question, which is something that I try to ask everybody that's a parent that comes on the podcast. What is something that no one told you before you became a parent? Like what is something that you wish somebody had pulled you aside and just done like, okay, this is a thing that's going to happen. Just get ready.
Yeah, I wish that like someone told me that like I would not be sitting like I would not be sitting to eat… I would not be like during the day my ass would not like hit a surface and the The reason being is because I would have enjoyed it so much more and like soaked it in like in my pregnancy and before Like I took it for granted like just being able to rest and there was like a 10 month period of time where my son wouldn't even let me sit on the couch. Like I would just have to sit on the floor with him. So I know that's like really simple, but like that would be mine. Like just enjoy it.
Sitting on the couch is such a luxury. It's true. It's true. Just the things that would tell you and that you could never be prepared for.
Michelle, thank you so much for joining me on the pod. This was so fun. We barely scratched the surface of any of these topics. So if you are interested in learning more about this topic, feel free to contact Michelle because she is so wonderful and shares so much helpful stuff and the realness too, like someone messaged me on Instagram today because they knew we were going to be recording and they were like, "Oh my gosh, this is such a great collab. I'm so excited." And they sent me a million French fry emojis. And I just love that that's what you're known for.
That's my brand.
That's your brand. It's so good. Find Michelle @babiesandbrains on Instagram, and she has a parenting through attachment course, a childcare and preschool guide, and a new sibling guide, which is also really, really great for anybody that is trying to make the transition to making their little one of big sister or big brother. Thank you so much for joining.
I'll talk to you soon. Yeah, thank you for having me. It was fun.

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